John Spence: Diocese has a sound financial basis on which it can develop

The new chair of the Chelmsford Diocesan Board of Finance is retired banker, Canon John Spence OBE, deputy chair of Business in the Community and former chief executive of Lloyds TSB Scotland. As well as chairing CDBF, the charitable company that manages the financial affairs of Chelmsford diocese and its assets, he is leading a campaign to raise £500,000 for the Church Urban Fund from the diocese this year.

Communications director RALPH MELOY questioned John Spence about his new role.

You have many senior appointments. What attracted you to this one?
When I left Lloyds bank two years ago, I wanted to do the things I hadn't had time for. I wanted to do
something for my own community. I'd lived in parishes that had struggled to pay their Parish
Share, worked in Chelmsford cathedral for 20 years and been made a Church Commissioner. So
I think I can see where everyone's coming from and so help them find a solution. And when the Bishop of Chelmsford tells you that you're the right person for a job, he makes a very persuasive case!

What kind of solution are you looking for?
There's no single solution. All I'm trying to do is achieve sustainability for the diocese and the parishes, recognising the legitimacy of all the points of view and bringing some creative thinking into play. It's about sharing the cake and about making the cake bigger. I want to move things along, but I'm joining a team that's already working well.

What's different about working for the Church compared to running a business?
That implies there is a difference! In business I tried to achieve goals through Christian values, even
when faced with tough decisions. If business is only ruthless, it will not be sustainable. On the other hand, if the church doesn't recognise the world in which it operates, it isn't going to be sustainable either. Having a business edge is about helping people have confidence in making requests. For example, inviting parishes to support the Church Urban Fund as well as pay their Parish Share.

Why do you find finance exciting?
You get a real sense of achievement if you find new ways to tackle old problems. Look at the creative way the diocese is helping deaneries and parishes with Parish Share issues! I want to reach out to as many people as I can and invite them into our family, not necessarily into our church buildings. But we
can't reach out unless we get the finances straight. Otherwise we'll be obsessed with looking after the
buildings. And these ageing assets are very demanding of us. The CDBF is there to support the
mission and ministry of the Church.

So how will you get results?
The chairmanship of the CDBF is an important responsibility but it's not everything. It's a voluntary role and it is my privilege to do it, rather than the fulfilment of a personal ambition. But, as with everything I do, I'll be working with good people. We already have an excellent team
in place and we'll continue to be working together, showing dignity and respect for each other.

Do you agree it is hard to talk about finance in the Church?
Yes, eyes glaze over! But in all the fields where I work - business, schools, government and charities
- people tell me that what happens somewhere else doesn't apply to them. Everywhere you go there's a responsibility to use limited resources to best effect. But it would be wrong to apply business principles slavishly. Sometimes we have to draw back from that. Our stakeholders and outcomes will be different and the way we do things will change. But we're still trying to respond to opportunities
and make the best use of resources.

Can the diocese go on losing money?
We're waiting for the 2007 results but we know that the gap is closing. An end year gap of
£600,000 will not represent 50 per cent of our costs, but less than five per cent. So the gap may seem big in absolute terms, but it's small relative to what we are already achieving. And the way to bridge that gap is not to run the existing wells dry; it's to reach out to those on the periphery and to those who can afford that bit extra.

Will financial pressures mean things have got to change, including closures and mergers?
Change is constant. Every generation believes it's had the best time, better than one before
and better than the one to come.The Victorians seemed to think the way to heaven was to build a
church. We've moved away from the time when people went to church out of duty. Yes, churches
will close but we hope that new aspects of mission will break out and grow. We have to look at the efficacy of resources. A vicar shared between eight rural parishes might have the same combined congregation as one town centre parish. What matters is not the number of churches but
how people are supported.

What do you think about the level of giving that currently exists?
It's good. The income of the diocese equates to about three per cent of the take-home pay of
Church members. So a huge amount is already being achieved.

Do we need to take action urgently?
Over the next two or three years, there's a window of opportunity while we get additional support
from the Church Commissioners. After that, the returns will diminish while the number of ordinands will increase. And that potentially means spreading the jam more thinly. So we must close the gap
now before another gap appears. But we're not starting from base camp; we're well up the mountain.

Should the diocese be looking to existing church members to raise money or reach out to new groups?
We should be developing the relationships that exist. Marketing science tells us that warm leads work best. There are parishes and deaneries still working to bring their contribution to the level of others and we must continue to coach them in that direction. We only need five per cent more overall, and with people giving an average of three per cent of income, just one per cent more, or a 97th of what is left, will transform our finances.

How can you encourage people to give more?
One of the answers is to encourage more people who come to church to make a regular commitment. And maybe we have something to learn from the national charities about keeping in
touch with donors and developing relationships with them over a long period of time. But many people
have imaginative solutions. It's then a question of sharing best practice. We're not in competition with each other after all. We need to feel confident in what we've already achieved, confident about
reaching out to others and creative in opening our minds.

But is it right to make increasing demands on parishes: what about cutting waste?
We're working extremely hard to contain costs and stop them exceeding income. But why would
we expect our costs to stop growing when the population we serve is growing substantially? If we're experiencing a rise in costs despite a stronger focus on efficiency, we're doing more for the mission of the Church. We need to increase the numbers of younger people coming in behind the older
generations who are the backbone of the Church. We can expect costs to fall per head.

Will church finances be hit by changes in society?
Congregations are changing. The older generations have come from a sense of order and obligation.
But throughout society fewer people are joining committees. People are increasingly unwilling to
take on obligations of membership. They dip in and out. The challenge will be to reach out to those on the periphery and engage them.

How would you say we are doing as a diocese?
We are fortunate to be in one of the few regions that makes a net financial contribution to the national economy. The diocese has a sound financial basis on which to develop. We enjoy many
different styles of worship. And above all we are united in the joy of believing in Christ and of living
by His message.

And finally . . . How can it be that you are blind and yet ride a motorbike?
My first ride on a bike was when I was given a lift, aged 16, long before the days of crash helmets.
Then many years later I let slip that I'd love to try the TT course on the Isle of Man if only someone
was brave enough to go out with me. And that's how I found my great friend, Simon Gray, who
comes over on a Saturday and rides my bike for me. I must apologise to the residents of
Burnham-on-Crouch in this connection. Life's all about testing the boundaries. We'd never achieve anything if we stayed within the confines of what's safe.

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